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#41 Pandaboy

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:57

It's impossible to "prove" something does not exist.

if I said that that there is a blue hairy monster with 5 heads somewhere in the universe, it would be impossible to prove me wrong, no matter how irrational my statement is.

That's why unless something has been proven proven to exist, it is irrational to believe in it because it is not based on facts or reason, it is based on hope and beliving and wanting it to exist (which would be categorized as emotions and feelings)

 

Rational:

based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings

 

So the argument that "it's not proven to not exist" is just as irrational as the idea of a bearded man in the sky, because the person with the argument does not think about how it can or can not proven, so there is no reason in the argument. Imagine if the the prosecuted person in a trial would have to prove the non-existance of evidence against him, or be thrown in jail anyway because everyone believed he was guilty.



#42 Psycix

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 17:38

If it was so random and didn't make sense up to a certain degree, people wouldn't want to believe in it.

Randomly generated. Not random.

Imaginary things are practically randomly generated, while following some rules for making sense.

 

My point: in ancient times, knowledge was limited, but Man's imagination was not, and filled the gaps. You see this as wrong, as a typical, enlightened modern man; but I see its past usefulness, and necessity. Nowadays though, that's something else.

Yeah, so the origin of the religion can be explained, but in mordern society it is a burden that should disappear as fast as possible.

If something is past usefulness and necessity, isn't practicing it (and it's negative effects) not wrong?

 

A religion is not stubborn and always refuses to admit it can be wrong; the people who practice it though, do. As of today, many Christians believe in evolution as well as their god. 

A religion does not refuse things. To that statement I am simply 'wat'.

Many christians believe in both evolution as well as their god, perhaps as an absolute number, but as I have shown you the percentage is much much lower and there is a clear causation between religous beliefs and "belief in evolution".

The problem is that evolution is scientific fact and the "belief" in that should be 100%. The US is so indoctrinated with religion that even 40% of the athiests doubt religion. What the hell is that?

 

First, it talks about opposing infidels in those 109 verses, killing is only scarcely mentioned. Second, that shows how few people actually do it. People have the rationality not to go on a killing spree, religion or not.

Still says it. Still drives some people to do it.

If the religion didn't exist, nobody would do it.

When has atheism driven someone to a killing spree? Never. It is impossible because you can't kill for something that is absent. There is simply nothing to kill for.

 

My point exactly. Religion is not the sole source of irrationality, and faiths, in varying intensity, are a way of life.

Yes, faith. Religion promotes faith over rational thought. Hence religion bad.

 

I'd like you to explain to me how a faith can possibly be rational. Faith is believing. Believing is having knowledge without evidence. Faith and rationality are the exact contrary of one another. By definition, a faith cannot be rational.

One of my main points thus far is to explain how faith and rationality are opposites and rule eachother out.

What I mean with my previous post was not that faith can be rational. My point was that nobody purposely performs irrational actions: it is that faith drives someone to irrational actions, even though that person THINKS it is rational, even though it is irrational.

 

So you believe. You believe in a future revelation just as some Christians believe in the Judgment Day that is to come. Even I don't hold such a belief, that one day we will find out the truth. That just sounds so irrational to me.


Quit denying you don't have any faiths. You believe in mathematics, in science, physics, you believe in your country, in your culture, your history, in your friends, your family, the betterment of humankind, the superiority of science and the poison of religion. Like many others, you've seen horrible things happen, blamed religion, believed religion is evil, and later came to the conclusion that all forms of faith are wicked. You believe in more things than you think; we all do.

What part of 'maybe' did you not understand? I said MAYBE we will find the truth. It is a potential outcome of our explorations, which would be nice because it would settle debates like this. I am not making a prophecy, I am making multiple hypotheses from which none can be confirmed, YET.

 

I "believe in" mathematics science and physics because they are observable science. I "believe in" them WITHOUT FAITH.

I am quoting "believe in" because that implies faith. I simply "know them" as facts. The only faith I have is the faith to rely on my senses and brainpower.

 

Knowing something does not require faith. Concluding something does not require faith.

The only thing that requires faith is when you WANT to believe something even though it is not supported by any evidence. I don't want to believe in anything unless it is supported by evidence.

 

It's not that different, Hitler's nationalism-socialism relied heavily on indoctrination for example. Besides, that doesn't explain how me or other people stopped being Christian on our own.

Different scenario to democrating voting of today. Irrelevant.

No, it doesn't explain that, because it wasn't meant to explain that. This explained the absence of choice for indoctrinated children versus voting adults.

 

The brain is also programmed to want to know, or rather, to not want to not know. As History proves it, people give a higher priority to that pursuit than to rationality.

And a smart brain applies logic and rationality to achieve that goal with best effectiveness, accuracy and coverage.

How is rationality competing or exlcuding "wanting to know, or not wanting to not know"?

 

I can't entirely disagree with that, but how come there are so many religious scientists? They're not ignorant or dumb, and they're no more far in than the next guy.

Because a small percentage of billions of people is still a large number.

Make a google. Wherever you look you will find that a significant majority of scientists are athiests.

 

There are NOT many religious scientists. Or rather, there are not many scientifically oriented religious practicioners.

How could someone possibly become an evolutionary biologist or geologist if he/she believes the earth is 6000 years old? How can you work as a nuclear radiologist and question radiometric dating methods? How can you be an astronomer rejecting evidence supporting the big bang?

 

The main problem is that people raising/indoctrinating their childen with religious beliefs will lower the chances those kids grow up to be a good scientist that contributes something to the world.

 

I guess you see religion as an active belief: if you practice, it's all you practice, and it determines the way you live your life. You know that's not true, and this is an important point. Look at the IS now: their belief, which is a bit different than what other Muslims believe in (as proven by their attempt to change the Quran), now that's an active belief. They really believe in what they're doing, their life's purpose. Go ask the average Christian about his opinions on God and he'll tell you: "God's okay, I guess". Same for Muslims. Not the same for radical Muslims, Al-Qaeda or similar cells.

Yeah, yet if you ask those "yeah god is okay I guess"-christians about the origin of life, they will always state god made it and actively refuse to accept any scientific proof. The religion made people act retarded, and that is why I don't like it.

 

Believing in perfect rationality though, is dangerous. Ever heard of scientism?

Why? Is it not the most accurate and correct world view one can have?

How can something not be the truth it if relies on observing what the truth is?

 

Making assumptions could be actually seen as rational. Not making assumptions can be dangerous and unhelping for oneself. In some situations, not making assumptions will get you killed.


I would like to ask you a question. Imagine; something unique happens to you, something that would never happen again. Your body is contaminated with something, that, if researched, will surely advance humanity by a few centuries, maybe more. But you need to die to be researched. Would you do it? Would you sacrifice yourself for humanity's sake? 

Nuh-uh!

There is a difference between making an assumption in the sense of hypothesis or calculated risk and an assumption in the sense of THE ORIGIN AND MEANING OF LIFE DICTATING YOUR ENTIRE LIFESTYLE.

Of course assumptions can be made. How many times have students assumed drag or friciton to be neglegible in their physics exercises or chemicals to be pure and perfectly homogenous in their chemistry experiements? All the time. Except this is assuming while KNOWING it is assuming and why you are assuming it.

Religious assumptions are not recognised as assumptions by the practitioners, but as facts. And this is where the factual incorrectness is rooted.

 

 

To your proposition:

Initially I'd say: Yeah, sure. I bet something can be worked out on the right terms. (Ensure the technology will fall into the right hands etc.)

However, on-the-spot, I am quite certain that my self preservation will prevent me from doing it, and it will be the hardest desicion I will ever have to make.

 

 

@timerider

If people find a great bearded man in the sky controlling people as reasonable, then hey, that's rational by this definition.

-snip-
Think of that peer-reviewed scientific magazine article as a theological paper that has had lots of high level theologians read and debate it.  They're placing their faith in a book and you do too.  The only difference is that your faith is science Psycix.  
-snip-
Anyway, the Bible isn't this changeless thing, look at all of the different editions and versions of it and tell me that it hasn't changed.

-No, it is not rational and those people are retarded. Sure it might be rational to them, but it it irrational to any third party.

 

-Same answer as up in this post. The word believing implies faith. Knowing doesn't. I believe it, but that's because I know it, not because I assume it. I faithlessly believe in certain facts.

 

-Yes, there are many different versions of the bible, and they all claim to be the one true word of god. Funny, isn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

Note: Fixed the quote problem, limit raised from 10 to 50. :)


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#43 Blackheart

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 18:27

20140823_182252_zps73e50c32.jpg

 

Got this in the mail today, took a picture. Lelellelelelle



#44 The Time Rider

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 21:04

I didn't know that there were 322 commonly spoken languages, holy hell someone hired a lot of translators.  That really is the weirdest religious pamphlet though.  "Daily dose of his word" "God's glorious presence and victory"?  What victory are they talking about for fucks sakes.

 

Also, I guess I can see Psycix's point that religion isn't great and it does cause some bad shit like people voting conservatively and voting and acting as a certain way because they believe that the world will end, potentially soon.  I'm still not convinced that religion is as bad as he says though.  If Christianity or Jainism or really whatever helps people not be complete douches to each other, then it doesn't seem terrible to me.  That being said though, Islam is a terrible, awful religion that deserves to be purged from the Earth.


"There are times when one would like to hang the whole human race and finish the farce" -Mark Twain
“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.”-Mark Twain

#45 Blackheart

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 21:06

If Christianity or Jainism or really whatever helps people not be complete douches to each other, then it doesn't seem terrible to me. That being said though, Islam is a terrible, awful religion that deserves to be purged from the Earth.

 

Whelp, retard alert.



#46 Psycix

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 21:08

 If Christianity or Jainism or really whatever helps people not be complete douches to each other, then it doesn't seem terrible to me.

Relgion worked great back in the day to enforce morals and cause people to work together in a humane society. It also served its purpose to answer the questions we couldn't. What is lightning? Who controls the moon or the stars? 

Today, we have a working justice system and a capitalist market to keep people in check, and we have science to explain the things we didn't understand.

In the modern society, all the positive effects are gone, and the only effects those religions have are people being retarded about scientific facts because their book doesn't agree and other conservative standpoints.

 

Islam might usually* turn out more violent, but christianity is more integrated in western society, stalling it's advancement from the inside out.

 

*Not long ago there were these christians in africa mass murdering muslims, possibly still going on.


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#47 The Time Rider

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 21:13

 

 If Christianity or Jainism or really whatever helps people not be complete douches to each other, then it doesn't seem terrible to me.

Relgion worked great back in the day to enforce morals and keep people from killing eachother, making it more likely for people to work together.

Today, we have a working justice system and a capitalist market to keep people in check.

In the modern society, all the positive effects are gone, and the only effects those religions have are people being retarded about scientific facts because their book doesn't agree and other conservative standpoints.

 

This would seem to summarize it pretty well in my mind actually.  I think religion was really good for helping set up our current morals and maybe a lot of shit attributed to religions as being the only reason people act morally is just a central part of our society inherited from religions centuries ago.  Well, inherited obviously isn't a perfect word because religions are still around, but collected or absorbed may be better.

 

If Christianity or Jainism or really whatever helps people not be complete douches to each other, then it doesn't seem terrible to me. That being said though, Islam is a terrible, awful religion that deserves to be purged from the Earth.

 

Whelp, retard alert.

 

Would you be able to elaborate on what you meant by this?  It seems to have added nothing and just been a pointless insult.


"There are times when one would like to hang the whole human race and finish the farce" -Mark Twain
“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.”-Mark Twain

#48 Loadingue

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 21:41

I was writing a lengthy reply to Psycix's latest massive post, and my PC crashed halfway. I lost everything, including the will to continue arguing. It was a good debate though.
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#49 Blackheart

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 23:14

Oh it's a pointless insult alright, but that's exactly what you did right?

 

Have you read all of the Bible, the Quran and any other holy book completely? None of it is all bad or all good. Therefore either get rid of religion in it's entirety or don't be so media infested.


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#50 yagwog

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:07

I6OTT5f.gif

 

Holy fuck this thread, does religion really get to some people this much, even when they don't know much about it?


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#51 The Time Rider

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 13:08

Have you read all of the Bible, the Quran and any other holy book completely? None of it is all bad or all good. Therefore either get rid of religion in it's entirety or don't be so media infested.

I understand that there is some good stuff in there, but it seems so outnumbered by all of the bad.  Besides being completely sexist, it contains 109 verses that say to kill the infidel.  At one point it is said they Muslims who don't will burn in hell.

For example, 

"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.  But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" Quran 2:191-193

 

"Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind."   Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3 Book 48 Number 826: 

 

And one of my personal favorites:

 

"The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women."  Sahih Bukhari Vol 4 hadith number 464

 

 

Not eating pork is one thing, actively discriminating and killing or being commanded to kill the majority of the world is another.


"There are times when one would like to hang the whole human race and finish the farce" -Mark Twain
“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.”-Mark Twain

#52 yagwog

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 13:28

I understand that there is some good stuff in there, but it seems so outnumbered by all of the bad.  Besides being completely sexist, it contains 109 verses that say to kill the infidel.  At one point it is said they Muslims who don't will burn in hell.

 

Are you fucking retarded? Y/Y?

 

You literally responded to blackheart doing what he told you not to do. Even then, those verses CAN be interpreted by some that means kill the infidel. But you don't see every person of the Islamic faith going on a killing spree, do you? Even some of the faith disagree with the Quran on points about the equality. People don't understand that any faith could relate to the typical half follower christian. Not everyone of faith will blindly follow any point suggest or made by it, or even any of the conventions of how they treat people,  so It's time you stop blindly believing the trash that is US TV.


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my response to vaping being "cool" tbh fam

 

"stimulates the same circuitry that was simulated when u sucked on ur mommas titty

faggot"


#53 Loadingue

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 13:46

I said in an earlier post that not all those 109 verses speak of killing infidels, because, you know, I've actually read them. Only a few hint at killing them. Most of them are just "infidels are bad, infidels are bad".

 

And wow, yagwog and I actually think alike for once.


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#54 Psycix

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 14:22

Timerider, we can do the same for the bible.

 

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

Basically:
If a girl gets raped, she has to marry her rapist.

 

Joshua 10:40

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

Basically:

Killing an entire country because god told him to. Sounds fammiliar?

 

Timothy 2:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.

Basically:

Yay for sexism

 

Leviticus 25:44-46

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.

Ephesians 6:5

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 

Basically:

Slavery is ok.

 

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. 

Basically:

If you fail at parenting, stone your kid to death.

 

Samuel 15:3

This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’

Basically:

God promoting genocide, once again.

 

And there are many many more questionable stories from the bible. There is blood and violence on every other page, AND PEOPLE READ THIS TO THEIR CHILDREN.


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#55 Loadingue

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 14:27

But they don't do it. Christianity has come a long way since the days people killed in the name of (the Christian) God, and Islam will probably end up the same one day.


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#56 Valikai

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 14:37

jesus made water into wine at a wedding.
god tells us to get wasted and party hard.


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#57 Psycix

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 15:16

But they don't do it. Christianity has come a long way since the days people killed in the name of (the Christian) God, and Islam will probably end up the same one day.

 

So the slaugher muslims by christians in the Central African Republic earlier in 2014 did not happen?


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#58 Loadingue

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 17:33

So the slaugher muslims by christians in the Central African Republic earlier in 2014 did not happen?


Was it publicly endorsed by the Christian authorities or was it a rogue cell?
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#59 Gio!?

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 19:10

The UK now banned this video: http://www.dumpert.n...13427/6fbaee84/ and will prosecute anyone who spreads it.

 

Censorship much... #UKisNK


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#60 Loadingue

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 19:44

The UK now banned this video: http://www.dumpert.n...13427/6fbaee84/ and will prosecute anyone who spreads it.
 
Censorship much... #UKisNK


At the same time, it gives ISIS a huge publicity. Terrorism works best when the target spreads the terror among themselves.

Won't change much though, we'll still hear of anything horrible they do, video or not. A pointless censorship in my opinion.

Edit:

Look, their latest abomination:

Spoiler


How far will they keep going?

Source: http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1914450
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