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ISIS Thread

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#21 Loadingue

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 20:30

Look at those Americans here, where a nuke is the answer to all problems. "It worked with the Japanese, why won't it work with the Middle-East?" There are so many reasons I'm not going to say any.

 

The ISIS needs to be infiltrated and destroyed from the inside. That's the only good solution I'm seeing, and it's not an easy one. Nobody said this was gonna be easy.

 

Either that, or it'll destroy itself eventually, in some way.


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#22 bongfeng5000

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 22:30

Bump

 

IS have got their hands on an American journalist and have beheaded him. They first made him give a speech, blaming the US government for his death and telling his own brother (who is in the USAF) to stop "destroying lives". 

 

http://twitchy.com/2...headed-by-isis/

 

Link to the video

 

https://archive.org/details/a100_mta

 

 

It's going to get taken down soon so watch it fast. It is very distressing.


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#23 Astro

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 22:58

I can't believe that the guy that beheads him has a British accent. It's things like this which makes me think, fuck civilians and let's just nuke the fuck out of the whole place.


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#24 Loadingue

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 23:42

I can't believe that the guy that beheads him has a British accent. It's things like this which makes me think, fuck civilians and let's just nuke the fuck out of the whole place.

 

That makes us no better than them. If they don't have the right to kill innocents, why would we?


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#25 Astro

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 23:54

 

I can't believe that the guy that beheads him has a British accent. It's things like this which makes me think, fuck civilians and let's just nuke the fuck out of the whole place.

 

That makes us no better than them. If they don't have the right to kill innocents, why would we?

 

 

True, the rush of blood got to my head. (lol)

Increased drone activity. Although that's what he said that was "destroying lives".

And to think that a British person did this. And this person may return to Britain.

 

tumblr_nakqn6u9rh1ri3ts6o1_500.png


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#26 Loadingue

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 00:28

And they keep blaming religion. We've gone there before, haven't we.

 

The Quran didn't cause this. Allah didn't order this execution. Those men did it for themselves.


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#27 bongfeng5000

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 01:05

These men did it for themselves on the behalf of the Qur'an (A misinterpretation of the scripture of course but still on behalf of the book).


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#28 user

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 08:42

Religion must fall.


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#29 Astro

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:27

It will be interesting to see how the UK prevent these radicals from getting back into the country.


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#30 Loadingue

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:37

These men did it for themselves on the behalf of the Qur'an (A misinterpretation of the scripture of course but still on behalf of the book).

 
True enough. Religion holds some responsibility, but not all of it, or even most of it like some people think.
 

Religion must fall.


What I just said. Plus some religions are really fine with everyone. Buddhism for instance?

Oh, by the way:

http://www.thehindu....icle6333733.ece
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#31 The Time Rider

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 21:48

Forget Buddhism, look at Jainism if you want proof that not all religion is bad.


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#32 Psycix

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 21:19

Not all are harmful, but many are bad.

 

However, every single one of them is irrational.


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#33 The Time Rider

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 21:23

Everybody does irrational shit.  I'm pretty sure everyone here just feels a certain way and can't explain why.  Maybe you just have something weird in your routine,  But every does illogical, irrational things and to say that a certain type is bad just because it is of that type is generalizing in a really bad way in my opinion.


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#34 Loadingue

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 21:33

Every human is irrational, Psycix.

 

Pretending you're not, is irrational.


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#35 Psycix

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:28

I can explain everything I think or do. Perhaps this is easier for me than other people.

 

Rationality is what separates humans from animals.

Animals have feelings, memories, social interactions, love, hate, fear, hope. What they don't have is the intellectual capacity to solve complex problems. We do.

 

Our intelligence is our greatest virtue. It is what has turned us into what we are today. Without it we'd still be climbing trees like our ancestors have done for millions of years. In just a few thousand years we went from nothing to everything we have now. All thanks to rational thought.

 

Religion is based on faith (hence it is often called "faith"), a completely irrational assumption based on gut feeling and ignorance. The problem is that having such an irrational concept at the foundation of someones mental setup, it obstructs rational thought later on. Religious people generally discard any hard evidence that conflicts with their world view, simply because it doesn't make sense to them, and they will always find a way around in such a way that their false ideas seem the truth to them.

Religion causes conservative rules and traditions to be favored over innovative and new developments, even though any rational observer would suggest the opposite.

 

TLDR:

Rationality -> Important

Religion -> Irrationality

Religion = Bad


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#36 Loadingue

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:45

 

Religion is based on faith (hence it is often called "faith"), a completely irrational assumption based on gut feeling and ignorance.


That is a very naive definition of religion. First, it's not based on gut feeling: most religions tell you to help your next of kin, for instance. While the idea of a supreme entity is related to the gut feeling, the way it is accurately defined and explained can be seen as knowledge, the contrary of gut feeling. Uncorrect knowledge, but that's not the point; which also shows that religion is not ignorance, it's about knowing and explaining the unknown.

In the Middle Ages, everyone in this part of the world was religious, but they were ignorant. Blaming religion? No, because it was of course the lack of an educational system that caused it. A thousand years earlier, the Greeks and Romans had one, and were just if not even more religious. And they were not ignorant at all. Actually, the Greeks are still even today considered as a model of rational thought. Which brings us to a crucial question: does religion really interfere with rationality?

I'm thinking, that some people today and from before, have been irrational not because of religion itself, but because of other beliefs and faiths. If a religion truly pushed people to irrationality, all of its followers would act irrationally, am I right? You know they don't. When 9/11 happened, everyone blamed religion. Only, the Quran doesn't tell its followers to go crash planes into towers. Then, does it tell them to go kill infidels? No, it doesn't. I'll propose something to compare it with: the Japanese kamikaze during World War 2. Those didn't need a religion; their faith in serving their country, serving a greater purpose, was enough. Thus, do you think Al-Qaeda or whoever destroyed the WTC because God told them to, or because their very human leaders ordered them to, who obviously had nothing else in mind than serving their religion, am I right?

But that's the magic word: "faith". What do you believe in, Psycix? In yourself, surely. In helping others? In advancing civilization? Do you believe religion is bad as fiercely as you believe you are acting rationally by doing so?

You believe in a political ideology. Liberalism, am I right? If someone asked you your views on taxes or foreign policies, you would answer using your belief in your own political views. "But I chose my political party! Not the other way around." So did religious people. Most people were born into it, and remained it. Some others came to choose a religious faith later on. "But", you'll tell me, "politics is all about the truth, no bullshit." Is that right? Let me hear your thoughts about letting foreigners in the Netherlands, and I'll tell you if it is entirely rational.

My point is the following: irrationality is inevitable anyway. Everyone believes in a lot of things, some more rational than others, yes, but who can say with certainty? I would honestly say, in my case, that believing in God is more rational than believing in my political party. I'm going to tell one thing, that you believe in, that is irrational: believing that irrationality is always bad. If you are as rational as you pretend, you know that nothing is always bad. Besides, without irrationality, I'm not sure I would have the will to live anymore. More suffering than happiness, and the inevitable end after accomplishing nothing or so little.

The problem is that having such an irrational concept at the foundation of someones mental setup, it obstructs rational thought later on. Religious people generally discard any hard evidence that conflicts with their world view, simply because it doesn't make sense to them, and they will always find a way around in such a way that their false ideas seem the truth to them.


If that was any true, then everyone would be religious, as taught by each one's ancestors. You're confusing believer and radical believer. Most religious people belong to the former. If what you just said was true, then I would be Christian since I was educated as such. I didn't try to find a way around hard evidence, I simply dropped religion, like many others.

Religion causes conservative rules and traditions to be favored over innovative and new developments, even though any rational observer would suggest the opposite.


Of all people, a Dutchman says this. Do you remember protestantism? The Netherlands' Golden Age? I think I've said enough.

TLDR:

Religion != radical religion

And get this: rationality is a faith. Perhaps the most irrational there is.
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#37 Psycix

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 15:03

That is a very naive definition of religion. First, it's not based on gut feeling: most religions tell you to help your next of kin, for instance. While the idea of a supreme entity is related to the gut feeling, the way it is accurately defined and explained can be seen as knowledge, the contrary of gut feeling. Uncorrect knowledge, but that's not the point; which also shows that religion is not ignorance, it's about knowing and explaining the unknown.

What it tells you to do (love your kin) does not dictate what it is based on.
Knowledge? The definition of santa claus is also knowledge. Information on arbitrary things might be knowledge, but what use does it have to store randomly generated data?
The problem is that although a religious view might explain things "knowledge and explaining the unknown" it always supports itself, not open to new findings that prove it wrong. The thousand year old book is always right, and modern observations are somehow false. One of the golden rules of science (which is, mind you, the very art of knowing things) is to honestly admit what you do not know. This is how you persue the truth. Religion doesn't, it fills in the blanks with imaginary constructs, and when those are proven wrong, they are still held up by people who are incapable of living without it.
 

In the Middle Ages, everyone in this part of the world was religious, but they were ignorant. Blaming religion? No, because it was of course the lack of an educational system that caused it. A thousand years earlier, the Greeks and Romans had one, and were just if not even more religious. And they were not ignorant at all. Actually, the Greeks are still even today considered as a model of rational thought. Which brings us to a crucial question: does religion really interfere with rationality?

A religion that died.
A religion that was weaker than the irrational and ignorant christian beliefs which survived much longer.
 

the Quran doesn't tell its followers to go crash planes into towers. Then, does it tell them to go kill infidels? No, it doesn't.

Almost. It only tells them to kill the unbelievers in 109 different places in the Quran.
http://www.thereligi...23-violence.htm
 

I'll propose something to compare it with: the Japanese kamikaze during World War 2. Those didn't need a religion; their faith in serving their country, serving a greater purpose, was enough. Thus, do you think Al-Qaeda or whoever destroyed the WTC because God told them to, or because their very human leaders ordered them to, who obviously had nothing else in mind than serving their religion, am I right?

The Japanese word Kamikaze is usually translated as "divine wind" (kami is the word for "god", "spirit", or "divinity", and kaze for "wind")
 
Japanese patriotism was nearly a religion by itself. In both cases (japanese kamikaze and 9/11) faith was the thing that drove them to their actions. Faith. Exactly that irrational thing based on gut feeling and ignorace. Irrational thoughts is the source of all evil. The problem is that the presence of faith in one's mind causes him to perform actions he thinks are rational; actually, if his faith is true, the actions ARE rational. Sadly the faith isn't.
 

But that's the magic word: "faith". What do you believe in, Psycix? In yourself, surely. In helping others? In advancing civilization? Do you believe religion is bad as fiercely as you believe you are acting rationally by doing so?

 You believe in a political ideology. Liberalism, am I right? If someone asked you your views on taxes or foreign policies, you would answer using your belief in your own political views. "But I chose my political party! Not the other way around." So did religious people. Most people were born into it, and remained it. Some others came to choose a religious faith later on. "But", you'll tell me, "politics is all about the truth, no bullshit." Is that right? Let me hear your thoughts about letting foreigners in the Netherlands, and I'll tell you if it is entirely rational.
 My point is the following: irrationality is inevitable anyway. Everyone believes in a lot of things, some more rational than others, yes, but who can say with certainty? I would honestly say, in my case, that believing in God is more rational than believing in my political party. I'm going to tell one thing, that you believe in, that is irrational: believing that irrationality is always bad. If you are as rational as you pretend, you know that nothing is always bad. Besides, without irrationality, I'm not sure I would have the will to live anymore. More suffering than happiness, and the inevitable end after accomplishing nothing or so little.

Nothing I believe is based on faith. I have no faith. Until proven otherwise I am a soulles sack of molecules with a virtual conscience. The reason I think advancement of civilization is important is because it is the only thing we can do in this sandbox called the universe. Explore. And maybe one day we will actually figure out the truth. Until then, make no assumptions.
 
My political idiologies are my own conclusions, to say I "believe in them" is wrong. Having an opinion is different than having faith. The origin of my opinions can be rationally explained, but not in this thread.
 
Religious people did not pick their religion like they pick their parties. If someone was born into it they were heavily indoctrinated and never had a choice to begin with. Only people who pick their religion as an adult have had a choice.
 
And now we get to the bottom of things: Is it rational to believe irrationality is bad?
The problem for your side is that the only arguments against this are irrational to begin with. Only irrational feelings can conclude that irrationality is not bad; there is no rational argument for that.
I am not saying we should live without feelings or emotion, I know that this is impossible due to our brain chemistry.
We want to be happy because that is simply what our brain is programmed to want (which in itself can be explained evolutionary)
 

If that was any true, then everyone would be religious, as taught by each one's ancestors. You're confusing believer and radical believer. Most religious people belong to the former. If what you just said was true, then I would be Christian since I was educated as such. I didn't try to find a way around hard evidence, I simply dropped religion, like many others.

Exactly, dropping the religion is the only way out if you do not want to lie (to) yourself a way around evidence that goes against your religion. This is a perfect demonstration of how rational intepretation of evidence and religion cannot coexist in one mind.
Your rationality has beaten your religion. Sadly, many people are ignorant and too far in or too dumb (irrational) to break free.

If what I said earlier was false, how can it be that there are still religious people?
The evidence is all around us, yet they refuse to accept it!

Speaking of evidence, I can prove it!
One of the prime examples is how millions of modern people in the US refuse to accept evolution as a fact.
528-60.gif
Hello 21st century in a first world country? Are you there?
Note how the more religous people are, the more likely they are to choose god over science.
Source: http://www.people-pr...d-other-issues/
 

Of all people, a Dutchman says this. Do you remember protestantism? The Netherlands' Golden Age? I think I've said enough.

My nationality is irrelevant.
 

And get this: rationality is a faith. Perhaps the most irrational there is.

Because it is more rational to blindly follow a thousands of years old book full of contradictions and scientific inaccuracies.
I make no assumptions, and that is by defenition the most rational stance one can take.
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#38 Loadingue

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 16:54

What it tells you to do (love your kin) does not dictate what it is based on.
Knowledge? The definition of santa claus is also knowledge. Information on arbitrary things might be knowledge, but what use does it have to store randomly generated data?

If it was so random and didn't make sense up to a certain degree, people wouldn't want to believe in it. The multiple Gods in Ancient Greece seemed unbelievable, but the fact that it explained so many things that couldn't be explained at the time have helped the average human feel more secure. No fear of the unknown. As I just saw in a video game last night: "No God, know fear. Know God, no fear".

My point: in ancient times, knowledge was limited, but Man's imagination was not, and filled the gaps. You see this as wrong, as a typical, enlightened modern man; but I see its past usefulness, and necessity. Nowadays though, that's something else.

 

The problem is that although a religious view might explain things "knowledge and explaining the unknown" it always supports itself, not open to new findings that prove it wrong. The thousand year old book is always right, and modern observations are somehow false. One of the golden rules of science (which is, mind you, the very art of knowing things) is to honestly admit what you do not know. This is how you persue the truth. Religion doesn't, it fills in the blanks with imaginary constructs, and when those are proven wrong, they are still held up by people who are incapable of living without it.

A religion is not stubborn and always refuses to admit it can be wrong; the people who practice it though, do. As of today, many Christians believe in evolution as well as their god. The Dalai Lama himself said: "If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change." (As a side-note, I found that quote on a website called RationalWiki)
 
 

A religion that died.
A religion that was weaker than the irrational and ignorant christian beliefs which survived much longer.

You should know better than that. People didn't go "Oh, that religion sounds better!" Politics and conflicts made the choice for them. Christianity survived much longer because its huge power was centralized and they relentlessly worked at converting and promoting themselves through art notably. All in all, Christianity was simply much more organized, and would have been extremely difficult to root out. As proven as of today, it still is.

 

Almost. It only tells them to kill the unbelievers in 109 different places in the Quran.
http://www.thereligi...23-violence.htm

First, it talks about opposing infidels in those 109 verses, killing is only scarcely mentioned. Second, that shows how few people actually do it. People have the rationality not to go on a killing spree, religion or not.
 

The Japanese word Kamikaze is usually translated as "divine wind" (kami is the word for "god", "spirit", or "divinity", and kaze for "wind")
 
Japanese patriotism was nearly a religion by itself. In both cases (japanese kamikaze and 9/11) faith was the thing that drove them to their actions. Faith. Exactly that irrational thing based on gut feeling and ignorace.

My point exactly. Religion is not the sole source of irrationality, and faiths, in varying intensity, are a way of life.
 

Irrational thoughts is the source of all evil. The problem is that the presence of faith in one's mind causes him to perform actions he thinks are rational; actually, if his faith is true, the actions ARE rational. Sadly the faith isn't.

I'd like you to explain to me how a faith can possibly be rational. Faith is believing. Believing is having knowledge without evidence. Faith and rationality are the exact contrary of one another. By definition, a faith cannot be rational.

 

Nothing I believe is based on faith. I have no faith. Until proven otherwise I am a soulles sack of molecules with a virtual conscience. The reason I think advancement of civilization is important is because it is the only thing we can do in this sandbox called the universe. Explore. And maybe one day we will actually figure out the truth. Until then, make no assumptions.

So you believe. You believe in a future revelation just as some Christians believe in the Judgment Day that is to come. Even I don't hold such a belief, that one day we will find out the truth. That just sounds so irrational to me.

Quit denying you don't have any faiths. You believe in mathematics, in science, physics, you believe in your country, in your culture, your history, in your friends, your family, the betterment of humankind, the superiority of science and the poison of religion. Like many others, you've seen horrible things happen, blamed religion, believed religion is evil, and later came to the conclusion that all forms of faith are wicked. You believe in more things than you think; we all do.
 

Religious people did not pick their religion like they pick their parties. If someone was born into it they were heavily indoctrinated and never had a choice to begin with. Only people who pick their religion as an adult have had a choice.

It's not that different, Hitler's nationalism-socialism relied heavily on indoctrination for example. Besides, that doesn't explain how me or other people stopped being Christian on our own.
 

And now we get to the bottom of things: Is it rational to believe irrationality is bad?
The problem for your side is that the only arguments against this are irrational to begin with. Only irrational feelings can conclude that irrationality is not bad; there is no rational argument for that.
I am not saying we should live without feelings or emotion, I know that this is impossible due to our brain chemistry.
We want to be happy because that is simply what our brain is programmed to want (which in itself can be explained evolutionary)

The brain is also programmed to want to know, or rather, to not want to not know. As History proves it, people give a higher priority to that pursuit than to rationality.
 

Exactly, dropping the religion is the only way out if you do not want to lie (to) yourself a way around evidence that goes against your religion. This is a perfect demonstration of how rational intepretation of evidence and religion cannot coexist in one mind.
Your rationality has beaten your religion. Sadly, many people are ignorant and too far in or too dumb (irrational) to break free.

I can't entirely disagree with that, but how come there are so many religious scientists? They're not ignorant or dumb, and they're no more far in than the next guy.

I guess you see religion as an active belief: if you practice, it's all you practice, and it determines the way you live your life. You know that's not true, and this is an important point. Look at the IS now: their belief, which is a bit different than what other Muslims believe in (as proven by their attempt to change the Quran), now that's an active belief. They really believe in what they're doing, their life's purpose. Go ask the average Christian about his opinions on God and he'll tell you: "God's okay, I guess". Same for Muslims. Not the same for radical Muslims, Al-Qaeda or similar cells.

You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text, wtf?

"If what I said earlier was false, how can it be that there are still religious people?
The evidence is all around us, yet they refuse to accept it!"

I know it as well as you do, but it does not pain me as much.


"My nationality is irrelevant."

Indeed, it's not. I would have presented you with the same arguments anyway.

 
"Because it is more rational to blindly follow a thousands of years old book full of contradictions and scientific inaccuracies."

I never implied that the Bible was rational. Believing in perfect rationality though, is dangerous. Ever heard of scientism?
 
"I make no assumptions, and that is by defenition the most rational stance one can take."

Making assumptions could be actually seen as rational. Not making assumptions can be dangerous and unhelping for oneself. In some situations, not making assumptions will get you killed.

I would like to ask you a question. Imagine; something unique happens to you, something that would never happen again. Your body is contaminated with something, that, if researched, will surely advance humanity by a few centuries, maybe more. But you need to die to be researched. Would you do it? Would you sacrifice yourself for humanity's sake?
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#39 The Time Rider

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:07

Are we all arguing on the same definition of rationality?  Just because one person thinks something irrational, that doesn't mean that it is irrational for everyone.

Meriam-Webster Online defines rational as:

 

 

 

 based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings

 

If people find a great bearded man in the sky controlling people as reasonable, then hey, that's rational by this definition.  And hey, the fact that he hasn't been found yet?  Well that's god's will and nobody fucks with god's will.  If someone accepts the Bible or Quran or really anything as fact, then they are basing it on what is a fact and reasonable to them.  As someone said, science is changing all the time.  What is fact at one point might be out the window tomorrow.  Think of that peer-reviewed scientific magazine article as a theological paper that has had lots of high level theologians read and debate it.  They're placing their faith in a book and you do too.  The only difference is that your faith is science Psycix.  Anyway, the Bible isn't this changeless thing, look at all of the different editions and versions of it and tell me that it hasn't changed.

 

I just realized that I kind of wrote this out of order and it may be hard to read


Edited by The Time Rider, 22 August 2014 - 21:08.

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#40 Loadingue

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 21:24

Rider's right. Besides, I'd just like to remind you that science hasn't proven that God doesn't exist, but that a large part of faith related to him is incorrect.

OK, we all know he doesn't exist anyway.
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